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I have been reading posts for days in the smokeless and black powder patching sections.
Do folk paper patch handgun rounds for shooting in rifles?
The reason I ask is I have a single shot 44-40 break-action and thought it might make a fun project. Is it feasible? Any point in it?
Rusty
I’ll be the first to answer and will be corrected, admonished and generally drug through the mud for my opinion. The first question, is it feasible. Yes, your 44-40 will have a groove diameter of either 0.427” or 0.429”. You’d need to start with a bullet that’s roughly 0.420”. There’s leeway on either side of 0.420” depending on the paper you use. Is it practical? There’s no benefit. The original 44-40 bullet was pure lead. Given the velocity you’ll get from your rifle, a good lube will take care of any leading. On the other hand, it won’t hurt anything and you’ll have bragging rights at the range if you decide to do it.
In addition to the above, the only time I have found this beneficial is for shooting dead soft bullets in modern rifles with high pressure smokeless loads. With black powder at normal levels, there is no reason to do it.
.......or to polish up a bore that is in need of it. Paper does it so well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobade
I read a article many years ago in a gun magazine re paper patching for .44 and .45 LC for rifles and handguns.
I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. I was skeptical that the patch would get ripped at chambering but decided to make a PP mould myself. These moulds are based on the Ideal Cylindrical Bullet Molds that were available back in... well.. I think the late 1800's. You can look them up.
I made a mould that cast at 0.421" then patched up to 0.434" to suit my 1894 with 0.4315" groove diametrer. It worked very well and I was wrong, the patched did not rip at chambering even though it is a straight walled cartridge and I had feeding problems with SWC's or any over length boolits.
I got excellent results but... as Nobade says, there wasn't any real need. With max. smokeless loads and PB boolits I get a bit of gas cutting but nothing major so paper patching is just extra work with no clear benefit in that case.
For my .308 and .303's that is a different story! There I can push velocity far above typical cast boolit velocities if I use PP boolits.
So, is it feasible... yes! Any point to it... yes and no. If you have leading problems then PP will likely fix that but if you don't have leading problems then it is really extra work with no clear benefit. I'd say if you want to try it then by all means. You can change boolit fit by changing paper thickness so you may find you can get better accuracy.
I guess another comment that may or may not apply is that I read that Marlins tend to have tight spots under dovetails and roll stamping. I was a bit skeptical but since accuracy was mediocre and I was getting some leading I slugged my barrel and lo and behold there were indeed tight spots! I decided to hand lap to remove the tight spots so did that and leading about disappeared and accuracy improved. In that case, paper patching would likely have also solved the leading and maybe helped accuracy.
Point being if you slug your bore and find tight spots then PP boolits may be am easy solution if you are getting leading. I doubt that tight spots are a common problem though and I am surprised at Marlin. Mine is a 1980's vintage gun with microgroove barrel.
So there is my $0.02 worth!
Longbow
There is one potential benefit from patching and that is that you might get lucky and find the patched boolit will seat tightly in an unsized neck. The rifle I am playing with at the moment has that with one of my boolits and using wood pulp printer paper. The paper compresses on seating. Is it worth the saving of that one step in case sizing and ever lasting brass? Oh, boolit sizing and lubing is another step being saved although that does not make up for the extra effort of patching. Apparently, velocity is higher with patching than one would get with plain cast with the same powder charge, if I remember correctly.
Being me, I would patch up for the 44 just because I can. I find it best for me to not do too many patched boolits at a time. It becomes tedious if I do too many at once.
If you size and lube your pistol/revolver bullets using such machines as Lyman/RCBS then the best route to go if you want to pump up the velocity with no leading or gas cutting is to use "Free Check". Not much of a slow down when your lubing/sizer bullet. Been using them for years and the aluminun is CHEAP as in free!Quote:
Originally Posted by longbow
With PB boolits sized appropriately I get no leading now at max. loads in the Marlin. That's why I said there wasn't really any point in paper patching for my .44 mag. rifle. Making and installing gas checks is about the same amount of work as paper patching. I am lazy and PB boolits work well so why would I bother with paper patching or gas checks if there isn't an obvious benefit??
I have one GC boolit mould for the .44 (it was a gift) and I made an Ed Smith version single stroke gas check maker for that boolit. Mostly I should PB ACWW in the .44 with no problems.
My .30 cal. rifes do require gas checks at anything past relatively mild loads so I do gas check those. Paper patching also works well. I also made an Ed Smith design gas check maker for these and I use old gutter material so yes, it is free.
Longbow
The rifle I am considering the PP 44-40's for is a Strong Firearms Co. break open single shot. It was manufactured sometime between 1882-1894 or so. The bore is not pristine (as expected), my reasoning is; a) PP is just super cool and I would like to learn how, b) it may just polish up the bore some, c) I am also converting an antique tool chest into a case for the rifle/shotgun combo and PProunds along with some brass shotgun shells would look really nice in the display!
You know, for science...
Rusty
My experience with the 1894 Marlin was that I got good results and the paper patching wortked well and was not damaged during feeding. The .44-40 has a slight bottleneck so even less likely ro result in patch damage.
I was patching heavy boolits though of 275 to 300 grs. so they were fairly long and easy to handle. What weight boolits will you be wanting to PP? If around 200 grs. they will be stubby and probably harder to patch though it should be doable, just a bit trickier with a short boolit.
There is certainly nothing wrong with trying it and learning a new skill. I just found it unnecessary work for the .44 so didn't pursue it there.
I just looked up some info for a friend who is going to paper patch for a .700 NE. Here are some sites/info I found to get him going:
https://vringblog.wordpress.com/2016...ching-bullets/
https://vringblog.wordpress.com/2019...llets-part-ii/
https://svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=42
https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Be...2073%20LR2.pdf
https://www.buffaloarms.com/9-pound-...h-pppaper.html
I should say that I am no paper patching expert but by playing with paper patch thickness I managed to get good results from .308 Win., .303 British and .44 mag. rifle. I made moulds to drop boolits of a diameter I could patch without sizing. Many people either size the lead boolit then patch or they size the patched boolit to get the final size they want.
The 9 pound onion skin seems to be the preferred thickness of paper at about 0.002" so take your groove diameter and subtract 4x0.002" per what Castaway says above. You will want the PP boolit to be at least groove diameter and up to about 0.002" over groove diameter.
You may be able to size down .44-40 boolits but likely better to get a mould of about 0.420" to 0.422" then select paper to get to your final desired diameter or size to your desired final diameter.
Also, I used only ACWW for paper patching but you may get better results using soft lead which would allow for both easier sizing and it should slug up in the bore a bit for perfect fit.
Good luck and have fun!
Longbow
I’m paper patching for a single shot 30-30 at the moment, it has a somewhat sewer pipe bore.
A light charge of medium powder and a lightly compressed load of cereal before the pp’ed bullet and I’m getting groups.
Started at not even on the target to about 2" at 50 yrds and closing in as things are cleaning up and smoothing out.
Anything else at present and it is just lead smears.
I need a 0.315" bullet for the oversize grooves.
I think the pp’ed bullets would look cool.
If you can finger seat them in, as fired cases. Then you only need a way to de-reprime.