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Hi,
I just started shooting cast bullets two weeks ago.
I am testing out a 180 grain BHN 18 from Missouri Bullets called a "pugnose" for a predator-type load that needs lots of penetration..
What cast bullet should I consider for a good mule deer and white tail load for my 357? (and is about 158 grains the right weight for that deer bullet)
Also, what BHN and velocity range should I be thinking about for the bullet you will be suggesting?
Thanks much!!
:smile:
Hello Oldcrab, welcome to the forum! For whitetail and mulies a 158 gr. should be fine. Load it as hot as accuracy and lack of barrel leading will allow. A 158 gr. SWC with a gas check or the 168 gr plain base, the "Thompson bullet" from Lyman and Ideal should work great. As for alloy, I wouldn't want anything harder than air-cooled wheel weights, about 10-12 BHN. A 50-50 alloy of WW and pure would be about perfect in my mind, if you can balance the load to avoid leading. Slower powders such as Blue Dot, 2400, WW296, H-110 or H-4227 should work well. I'm a big fan of Blue Dot but for your purpose H-4227 would be my choice if you have it. Best of luck on your quest, be safe and have fun!
Your 180 grain bullet will be just fine. I've used NOE 180 grain WFN with 12 grains of 2400 with great success on deer. My alloy is 50/50, velocity is right at 1470 FPS.
A 158 grain bullet will be fine. My preference would be toward one of the LFN/WFN profiled designs with a meplat of about .27". Anything of wheelweight BHN of 12-14 or harder should be fine for anything you're going to get out of a .357 handgun.
This will not be an expanding bullet. You'll be reliant on shot placement and the meplat tearing a leaky tunnel to do the job, but you will have penetration in spades. For sake of comparison:
Attachment 307990
Attachment 307991
That's a wheelweight + about 2% tin 135 grain 9mm driven at only 1030 fps and it stopped poking out of the 9th water-filled 1-gallon milk jug in the stack, trying to make it into #10. This is about three times the penetration I've seen with police duty hollow points (2-4 jugs). A 158 with effectively the same nose profile driven 300+ fps faster won't have any trouble with deer or pig.
I shot one several years ago with a 148grn button nose wadcutter at about 1400fps. Broke the onside shoulder and lodged under the skin in the offside rib cage. Shot was about 70 yards on a small buck. I think most bullets 158grns or heavier at 1200fps plus should do a bit better. The bullet showed mushrooming and a good chunk broke off. I'm thinking I ran it a touch too hard, I used to buy my ingots online and think I got a really hard mix. I've since started finding my own WWs at the local tire shop, and casting them with pure clip on WWS air cooled, I have not had the problem again and that includes several 357 mag rifles we've taken deer with. But lesson learned harder is not always better.
Attachment 308016
Attachment 308018
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I haven't had a chance with the 158 WFN on deer but the 180 WFN put through a deers boiler room gets it done . In my GP I have to keep brass at min length and the cylinder really clean for the WFNs to fully chamber and not try to bind the cylinder .
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WOW, that sounds hot, for a .357 Magnum! May I ask what you are shooting it out of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Michel
The 12 grains of 2400 and a 180 grain is in the Lyman manual. To me hard is good brittle is bad. Most of my cast bullets can be shot into a block of wood big enough to stop bullet split out of wood resized loaded and shot again. I have never recovered a bullet. I like holes on both sides. With a 357 any win or sec 158 and up will kill as far out as you can shoot to point of aim.
Nearly 1500 fps with a 180gr is definitely hot for a 357 magnum revolver. Maybe in a 6-shot Redhawk, or a 353 casull freedom arms. I'm assuming that post is a single shot long barrel handgun such as a TC Contender. 1300 fps is a much more reasonable number for a GP100.
You will get mixed opinions on what is best. Some like the non-expanding route, and generally a nice wide nose is best there. A good example might be the Arsenal 360-162 RF. To me I think a more mid weight bullet such as this will allow higher velocity which is a good thing, and it may be worth buying this as the gas check version. It is worth trying a 180 grain bullet, they often shoot really good. The great thing about this approach is that alloy does not matter that much. As long as it is not brittle, it will be fine. The easiest alloy is probably range scrap, or clip on wheel weights, or something else of that nature. Since expansion is not a goal, I think it is a good idea to water drop them from the mold for extra hardness. That hardness will all around make getting an accurate load easier when you are working with max charges.
I prefer an expanding bullet. In 357 magnum the easiest way is going to be a hollow point with a softer alloy. My favorite bullet is the NOE 360-176 SWC using the "cup point" pin which is a very shallow hollow point. I cast these of 20:1 alloy. The alloy you use for expanding bullets does matter. A common one is clip on wheel weights cut 50/50 with pure lead. It works, but there is nothing better than a binary lead and tin alloy. 20:1 works great, 16:1 would work just as good maybe better. I'm having good luck with plain base, I'm not sending these to the moon. I'm getting just over 1200 fps with them. Gas checks are never a bad idea, it's just that they can be a pain plus an added cost. I wouldn't mess with plainbase gas checks, if you want a gas check, get a mold that cast bullets for gas checks.
Some other notes. A GP100 can handle a cartridge OAL of about 1.650". That works out to the bullet nose from crimp to tip of about .350". Don't worry about BHN hardness. You can take range scrap lead, heat treat it, and get a BHN of mid 20's. You can also take air cooled Harball, and it's only like 16 BHN. The difference is that range scrap is still malleable, probably wont expand at that hardness, but it wont shatter. Hardball might shatter.
I also use that NOE WF 180 gr boolit (drops from my mold at 185) in both my 357 mag rifle, 357 max T/C carbine, and revolver. Using my experience with muzzleloaders, I calculated that I would need about 950 fps terminal velocity for deer and 1100 fps terminal velocity for average sized black bear out here on the Olympic Peninsula. That particular boolit achieves a serious amount of penitration and maximizes "thump" on impact. Check out the diagram on the NOE site to see if it is similar to yours. My favorite alloy for both hunting and accuracy has always been 60% pure and about 40% hard chilled birdshot. I find the pure at a recycler not too far from you. In a terminal ballistics test a couple years ago with a similar boolit into soaked compressed phone books at 40 yards started at 1250 fps, I got 17" penetration with expansion to .72" and over 95% weight retention. Welcome to our forum!
That velocity would have to be out of a rifle. The OP is using a revolver whichif a 6" barrel, would get 1150 - 1200 fps +/- fps with that load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Michel
Hard in a handgun hunting boolit is way over rated .
Seen some awesome results in the Hunting Section wit a 50-50 mix of Clip on Wheel Weights & soft lead (range scrap is okay) this will be about a 8.0 or 8.5 bhn and mushroom but hold together nicely for deer hunting boolit .
This 50/50 mix is all I use now . For the longest time I used straight Wheel Weight metal but the 50/50 softer mix is better .
All boolits are air cooled ...no water hardening .
Good Luck !
Gary
Soft lead is better. I use like 8/10 with a gas check.. mushroom good.Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall623
gwpercle, nailed it, deer aren't hard to kill but they are hard to hit for some people. Put that 8-9 BHN bullet in the right place & you'll eat backstraps every time. Hard bullets are way over rated for deer!
Dick
I am far from expert on this question, but Mr. Glen Fryxell who writes a lot about cast bullets does seem to be very knowledgeable about it. He has written that his choice of a .357 bullet for deer would be the hollow point version of the Lyman #358156 design. I have learned a lot from his articles (found on the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website) and if you are interested in his opinions I would suggest looking up his works there. Good luck, Bob
If we are talking about hard cast and the meplats are the same size, the faster bullet will make a wider wound. For revolver speeds, a Ranch Dog 135 at 1500 fps will make a bigger wound than a 180 at 1300 fps and still penetrate more than enough for Texas heart shots and any other angle you could think of. The 180s are not needed for deer unless you are shooting really far and looking to maximize down range energy and minimize wind drift from the higher BC. The difference in would diameter isn't dramatic but it is noticable.
For expanding lead bullets, the heavier the better. Lead bullets generally mushroom to a larger diameter than a jacketed bullet, and therefore penetrate less. I would want bare minimum 170-180 grains and that would still barely penetrate 4 milk jugs. Now you are limited to broadside shots and maybe the deer dies a little faster, maybe not. A 125-158 grain lead HP or cup point will not exit deer unless the deer is small and no major bones are hit. A 125-158 lead HP or cup point will maybe break one shoulder, but will over-expand or split in half and fail to penetrate through to the good stuff. I have found that 180s are barely adequate for deer driving if they mushroom because they penetrate only about half as far as a lighter harder bullet.
The FPS's are from rifles, not a handgun. As mentioned, 12 grains/180 gr bullet of 2400 is a book load.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosh75287
Put the bullet in the right spot and .357 works just fine..
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...71-357-Success
Greetings and Welcome to you !
A FNGC 180 is a good slug. Although I would be shooting a softer a softer Hunting cast slug. 50-50 wheel weight - pure for white tail.
Muleys are a whole bigger beast. If you can get to 50 yards and less and no shoulders.
If I ever get a Muley tag our 8" 41 Mag with a 280gr or our 475 BFR is going with at least a 350 gr.
For myself, by and far the most poured bullet in this caliber is the MP 359-640. I personally like the HP version but the FP also shoots good and produces good results.
My alloy drops the HP at 160grs and the FP at just over 170gr. I like it because it shoots well in both the 38s and 357s and has dual crimp rings for adjusting between the two.
My normal loads feed GP100'S with 6" barrels and uses a healthy dose of AA-9. I haven't taken a whitetail with it but have dumped a coyote and a couple of 150'ish pound feral hogs. The HP doesn't usually make it completely through a hog, but does wreck the vitals after passing through a shoulder blade. It isn't my preferred caliber but sometimes ya gotta use tha tool ya have, to get the job done.
The solid version gets the knod if I were actually PLANNING on using the GP for a hog but for a deer, and using bow hunting ranges as an example either one would work with a tight behind the shoulder shot.