M1 Garand in .308 WIN - just purchased ! LOADS ?

[johnho]

FYI, you have an uncut operating rod and they command a premium price. Some will not shoot with them as they are a bit more brittle and that is why later on they started cutting a notch on them to make them stronger. Will it break? Most likely not but if it were mine I would get another rod with the cutout only because it's a bit more valuable and collectable over a cut one.

One other point. I have no idea how that will hold up in a 308 but keeping within the pressures it should be ok too. Best to go to the CMP site and ask there.

[DoctorBill]

,
I do not understand something about these Rifles.....

We have Modern Steels - Hard, Tough, almost any quality.

WHY are these Operating Rods not made of metal tough or springy
enough to handle almost ANY recoil ?

Wouldn't some Stainless Steels work better ?

How many of you have had the Operation Rod Bend or Deform ?
Is it a common problem ? Modern Engineering should
be able to overcome this.

Just curious.

ALSO - what is that Gas Plug Business at the front of the rifle ?
I hear on YouTube Videos that one can purchase an ADJUSTABLE gas vent plug....

DoctorBill

[Delkal]

They are made of high quality steel and tempered correctly. While oprod breakage was rare then you have 5 million rifles under hard use it happened enough so they later studied and fixed the problem. The original oprod had a sharp 90 degree edge and this is not a good design for introducing stress cracks. The fix was to substitute a cutout / radius at the joint to spread the strain. I don't think any rifles were recalled during WWII but the old oprods were modified after the war when rebuilt and changed the specs to have a cut on later production. Most of the oprods are now cut but if someone is trying to make a "correct" WWII Garand they need an uncut oprod. That is why they carry a good premium. Its hard to tell from the picture if your oprod is uncut but if it is you can replace it with a cut one then sell the uncut to a collector for a nice profit.

If you use the correct loads with the correct bullet and powder burn rate you do not need an adjustable gas plug. The military never used one.

[country gent]

The op rod is a weldment and a long thin tube with a dogleg in it While it may not bend with a few heavy loads they are susceptible to bending with repeated use of heavy loads.

The gas plugs were originally a gas trap design that vented of pressure. Changed later to the solid plug. You can drill and tap them 10-32 and make set screws with different size ports. I have done both M1 garand and M1A/M14 gas plugs.

The gas tube is stainless steel.

Hi speed photos show the op rod under pressure flexes using almost all the space in the stock and hand guards. When firing it flexes quite a bit and set up so harmonics under rapid fire

[johnho]

DoctorBill, are you referring to "modern" now or "modern" back in the late 30's and early 40's when this rod was made? Springfield Armory back then was the premier military gun manufacturer (nothing to do with the current Springfield). they tested over and over what metals and heat treatments would work. Many times they were right, but sometimes they were wrong. When they were wrong they would go back and eventually find the solution. Hence the cut in the operating rod. And almost any collector and shooter of M1's want the correct parts for their rifles, not some current after market part. We are a bit odd that way. SA was the manufacturer of all military small arms going all the way back to 1777. It's very rare today to find an all original M1 with all the correct parts. The parts were all interchangeable in the field hence the many parts from many years to be found in the current M1's for sale today. And they are a hoot to shoot. These 308's were a bit odd and were adapted from the 30-06 by using a sleeve in the chamber. Sometimes they would pull out but overall seemed to function fine. Never saw the need to make it into a 308 but then again I'm kind of a purest.

[DoctorBill]

.
I am not a collector like on Antiques Road Show, so I would buy the strongest
Oprod I could get. However, as I mentioned, I am also not a believer in shooting
Macho Loads in the rifle.
Thus, my 38 gr Reloader 15 load with 150 gr FMJ bullet , if it works to cycle the action,
will most likely be my go to load.
At 81, I give a big rat's pituty about being macho....

I don't hunt, so I don't need a hot load. It would be interesting to live where wild
pigs are a problem, tho..... THAT might be fun and useful to boot !

From the comments here, the 38 gr Rl-15 should do the job for me. A bit
higher if it isn't enough to cycle the Bolt.

I get the M1 Friday - 3 days to go. I was not born to be patient or a patient.

DoctorBill

[K43]

@DoctorBill, You really should go over to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and ask these things. CMP is everything M1 Garand. They are the current outlet for US Gov surplus rifles. CMP's Armorers at the Anniston Depot are the official checkers, repairers, and overhaulers of the the surplus M1 riles.
All of your questions are already answered by experts in the CMP knowledge base: description and nomenclature of parts, function, field stripping, cleaning, greasing, shooting = all provided by the CMP.

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/

And the CMP forums.
https://forums.thecmp.org/

[DoctorBill]

.
I shall look into it, K43.

Been looking at the YouTube videos on the Gas Plug. Makes sense to me.

I DO NOT intend to shoot Commercial Cartridges....for two reasons.
EXPENSE - the cost now is asinine.
Heavy powder charges - way, way too hot ! Macho stuff or hunters stuff.

But, I DO HAVE a lot of collected Bullets of various weights (mass) and may
want to load them. Thus, the Gas Plug.
I will have to do my "Homework" and see what is what about that.

I haven't even received my M1 Garand yet !.... and here I am getting all sorts
of advice. All things come to those who wait. CoVid, gas, old age, duffusness.....

Having fun, thought. THAT is most important.
"Time is the Fire in which we burn". Delmore Schwartz (December 8 1913 – July 11 1966).

DoctorBill

[K43]

Ah, I see. You're going to be all prepped.
Yes Sir, the ported plug is not necessary if shooting Cast Boolits or Garand friendly loads. It was originally developed for shooting heavy bullets at long range in competition (180+ grains over slow powders etc.). It became an unnecessary crutch used by those who want to shoot unnecessary commercial hunting loads in Garands. Someone will be offended by that statement, but it is true. Load to the rifle, it doesn't require hot stuff. People compete with 110 grain and 125 grain Varmint bullets at 200 yards. They don't shoot hot loads. Easy on the shoulder and quick return to sight picture in rapid fire. There's a revival of it with the John Garand matches these days.
There are some folks shooting cast in the M1 here and over at CMP forum. Also much load data that for jacketed that is relatively low recoil and Garand friendly. Nobody shoots 150g, 168g, or 175g 300 yards and under.
I have several hundred 125 grain Hornadys left over from when I switched to M1A and soon after became a Mouseketeer.
Hope you find what you are looking for in loads.

[Pirate69]

I see that you are looking at the data provided in the Lee 308 Win Die set. It does state that the maximum RL-15 load, for a minimum COAL of 2.700”, is 49.0 grains. Note that it does not specify the manufacturer and/or the style of bullet. Velocity is reported as 2919 fps.

I checked the Alliant Reloader’s Guide for 308 Win data. Alliant provides data on a Speer 150 grain SP bullet. Alliant states that the “not to exceed” load is also 49.0 grains of RL-15. The minimum COAL is also 2.700”. Reported velocity is 2919 fps. Lee may be using the Alliant data.

Both QuickLoad and GRT software programs have data for a Speer 150 grain SP (2023) bullet as well as Alliant RL-15 powder. I ran both programs to see how the QL and GRT results compare with the Lee and Alliant data. Lee does not state a barrel length but Alliant provides a barrel length of 22”. Care was taken to ensure that all the programs input parameters such as COAL, bullet length, temperature, effective case capacity and barrel length were the same. I also wanted to compare one program’s results against the other program’s results. Below is a comparison of results.

Speer 150 grain SP (2023)
Load Data---------------------Lee---------Alliant-------------QL------------------GRT
Velocity------------------------2919--------2919-------------2942----------------2910
Chamber Pressure------------????---------????--------------62,504--------------63,976
Load Ratio -------------------????---------????--------------105.7%-------------103.8%

The calculated velocities from the two models are very close to the measured velocity from Alliant. The North American SAAMI maximum pressure for the 308 Win is 62,000 psi. Both models predict pressures above the SAAMI maximum pressure.

I understand you will be using some FMJ bullets in your loads and will be starting at a much-reduced powder charge. This is wise since you will be using a bullet that is different from the bullet used in the Alliant data. Using the FMJs and the maximum given load could be problematic. I suspect the FMJs are longer than the Speer SPs used in the reload data. As an example, the Speer SP is 1.032” long. The Speer BT FMJ is 1.173” long. If the FMJs were loaded to the same COAL as the SPs, effective case capacity would be reduced, and chamber pressure will be increased. Seating the FMJ bullet 0.141” deeper in the case predicts chamber pressures well above the SAAMI maximum pressure.

Speer 150 grain BT FMJ (2018)
Load Data------------------------QL------------------GRT
Velocity-------------------------3001----------------2973
Chamber Pressure-------------68,610--------------70,699
Load Ratio --------------------110.0%-------------108.0%

Many members on this Site have stressed that you should always start low, when developing a load, and work up while looking for indications of pressure issues. This is great advice as can be seen in this example.

Have fun with your new rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

[johnho]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

Excellent advice. And if you look up those powders and charges make damn sure they are for Garand loads. As already mentioned, you can find all this info at the CMP website.

[DoctorBill]

.
I looked at the CMP website. One cannot join the CMP.
Being 81+, I DO NOT have to 'prove' my Marksmanship Ability ! Ha !



Also, where is the mentioned M1 Garand (.308) loading Data listed ?

Here is another question....was the M1 Garand in .308 (7.61 x 51mm)
only associated with the NAVY ?
All else was done by Civilians. Confusing.

DoctorBill

[K43]

Uh, I tried. Water and horses.
I shot a 308 Garand beginning in the 1980s. I loaded to the requirements of 7.62 in the M14 and M1A. There is data at the CMP forums. You load the same as one would for the M14/M1A rifle.
I give up.

[Pirate69]

Please don't give up. We are mentoring a gentleman whose learning curve on the 308 Garand is straight up. This is an opportunity to help him get started and hopefully keep him from making a catastrophic mistake.

[Pirate69]

DoctorBill,
It think it is being recommended that you research the posts on the CMP forum on reloading data for the M1A rifle, which is also a 308 Win. The following is an example of what you will find on the CMP forums.

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp-...ta-for-m1a-m14

Also, this is the link to the general CMP forum that has all grades of information is the sub-forums.
https://forums.thecmp.org/

[DoctorBill]

.
I misinterpreted the comments about finding data on the CMP website.
I was expecting to find Data Tables of various powder loads for a 150 grain
military bullet, not post by post of what various shooters use.

I think I will call this thread quits now.

DoctorBill

[Pirate69]

Don't do that. You are asking the same questions that every first-time owner of a Garand is asking. I own 19 Garands, two being 308 Win, and four M1As. I learn something new almost every day. I sometimes ask questions which reflect how little I really know about reloading and varies firearms. This site has a lot of members that have an extensive knowledge of weapons and reloading. Sometimes it is forgotten that everyone is not yet to that level. Hang with us.

[Pirate69]

I think this may be the table you are looking for.

M1 Garand 308 and M1A 308 Loading Data Suggestions
https://bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html

[DoctorBill]

.
Sorry about that.

I got angry. My Bad. I have a temper and it is worse when my Blood Sugar is high.
My wife just rolls her eyes and walks away. I know my informal style of Forum
interactions pisses some people off.

As T.E. Lawrence said (in 'Lawrence of Arabia') - "it is my manner".

I just retired from teaching Chemistry for 18 years in our local community college, and often wondered at students who simply would not look thru the window I showed them.
I guess the tables are turned here.

Yes, Pirate69, THAT is exactly what I was looking for...."Official" tables of Reloading
Data for the M1 Garand .308 that won't surpass the Rifle's Capability.
NOT post by post values given by forum guys. Those are fine, but NOT what one
should accept as.....what - "gospel" !

But, just something I have ALWAYS wondered.....Just WHERE does the DATA in the
reloading manuals come from and where does what is in that "https://bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html" table originate ?
Kind of like - If the Pope says it, it MUST be OK..... How does data get into
the reloading manuals anyway ? But THAT could be a whole 'nother Thread !

I get my Rifle on the 10th of May - 2 days away. I'm tempted to take my reloads with me, in their three Enbloc Clips (24 rounds), and go immediately to the Range
on the way home and try them out Then and There !

But the more careful side of my old brain says, "Take it home....take it apart and clean
and lubricate it FIRST. Only then actually SHOOT it." Who knows WHAT is in the barrel ?
God only, knows. I can even put the leather Sling I got on it...

I am quite confident that the 38 grain Reloader 15 will cycle it and be fine. It fits right
into the data that Pirate69 gave me.....burn rates, etc.

DoctorBill

Robert A. Heinlein in the Lazarus Long Science Fiction Series.....
"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.”